News Jackson Topine takes Bulldogs to court

[InGusWeTrust]

Can someone with more knowledge on the subject explain mental health issues for me please ..

I know it’s a real issue and it’s a serious one, I personally know people who suffer from it, but the people I know have suffered from it over long periods of time.

From what I understand, it‘s generally in the form of either bouts of deep depression, ADHD, schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, anxiety and in sever situations (generally life and death) PTSD …. unfortunately, as with most things, and I’m in no way suggesting that this young footy player is being dishonest here, but we all know there are those that will stoop to using any one of these afflictions if it’s convenient to a particular agenda at the time.

I’m not a doctor, just had varying levels of mental health issues for most of my life, so I have a lot of experience in that way.

In my experience it can range from just being unhappy and discontent in life, to being in a constant state of panic of impending doom. It’s actually one of the worst illnesses when you think about it, because the mind is what makes you think one way or another. For example, you could have a serious physical disease but if you’re mentally strong, you can take it in your stride. If you have severe mental illness, you’d be a wreck.

Mental illness is impossible to judge, because it’s all in the mind of the beholder, so-to-speak. So even if the person has been diagnosed with anxiety, depression, bipolar or whatever, it’s very difficult, if not impossible for anyone to know exactly what their experience is like, even for sufferers of the same disorder. It is also open to be manipulated like you say, because there’s no way to prove it. There’s no scan that says you have a, b or c, like if you have a broken bone or tumour. The only test asks you questions and the result depends on your responses, so it could be easily manipulated.

I’d say the most ambiguous aspect though is that because it’s difficult to judge, someone may well have real symptoms and feel awful, but if that’s the worst they’ve experienced, they won’t know that it can get far worse. I’ll put it like this, a lot of time I read about people experiencing issues and based on what I’ve experienced it doesn’t sound too bad. Sometimes it just sounds like normal problems. Real mental illness to me is life affecting, e.g: you don’t want to get out of bed or leave the house. Can’t sleep, no motivation etc. On the severe end of the spectrum there’s panic and distress, as if you’re fighting for your life. Every second of the day.

So when I hear about someone suffering, I always take it on face value, but also know that it can be very mild or even non-existent and they’re just using it to get their way. But, in Jackson’s case it’s not hard to believe the experience he had, brought on some issues, so unless there’s evidence to the contrary, I accept he’s experienced negative consequences from it.

Eta: Just thought of a simple explanation for what I was trying to say in regards to JT’s reported issues. He may have simply felt victimised and had feelings hurt, then decided he didn’t want to or couldn’t confront the situation (not answering calls). A perfectly normal thing some healthy people would experience. To him, if he hadn’t had these feelings before, it may have been upsetting. Just an idea of how trivial it could be. On the other hand he may have panicked and catastrophised, thinking his career was over. Who knows?

 

[Howie B]

I’m not a doctor, just had varying levels of mental health issues for most of my life, so I have a lot of experience in that way.

In my experience it can range from just being unhappy and discontent in life, to being in a constant state of panic of impending doom. It’s actually one of the worst illnesses when you think about it, because the mind is what makes you think one way or another. For example, you could have a serious physical disease but if you’re mentally strong, you can take it in your stride. If you have severe mental illness, you’d be a wreck.

Mental illness is impossible to judge, because it’s all in the mind of the beholder, so-to-speak. So even if the person has been diagnosed with anxiety, depression, bipolar or whatever, it’s very difficult, if not impossible for anyone to know exactly what their experience is like, even for sufferers of the same disorder. It is also open to be manipulated like you say, because there’s no way to prove it. There’s no scan that says you have a, b or c, like if you have a broken bone or tumour. The only test asks you questions and the result depends on your responses, so it could be easily manipulated.

I’d say the most ambiguous aspect though is that because it’s difficult to judge, someone may well have real symptoms and feel awful, but if that’s the worst they’ve experienced, they won’t know that it can get far worse. I’ll put it like this, a lot of time I read about people experiencing issues and based on what I’ve experienced it doesn’t sound too bad. Sometimes it just sounds like normal problems. Real mental illness to me is life affecting, e.g: you don’t want to get out of bed or leave the house. Can’t sleep, no motivation etc. On the severe end of the spectrum there’s panic and distress, as if you’re fighting for your life. Every second of the day.

So when I hear about someone suffering, I always take it on face value, but also know that it can be very mild or even non-existent and they’re just using it to get their way. But, in Jackson’s case it’s not hard to believe the experience he had, brought on some issues, so unless there’s evidence to the contrary, I accept he’s experienced negative consequences from it.

Mate it doesn’t matter if he has experienced negative consequences from it in this instance. What matters is if those negative consequences were experienced as a result of something the club has done wrong.

It’s crystal clear that all NRL clubs train their players hard and heaps of other players have experienced similar punishments to Topine.

It would be different if he was subjected to something unique that had never been done before.

Also keep in mind he had never mentioned any mental health problems to the club previously.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

I suppose what I’m asking is, if one incident can trigger it, how is it diagnosed as suffering mental health issues and not just an emotion that someone is experiencing at the time .. if a girlfriend breaks up with you and you’re distraught about it, are you suffering mental health issues, if you’ve worked a job for 10 years that you’ve loved, and you get laid off and you’re sad about it, can you be said to be suffering mental health issues

I think it’s important to respond to this point specifically. I’d say yes it’s possible that there’s a “trigger”. Someone may have mild symptoms, but then an experience such as the one reported could cause PTSD. I can imagine it happening.

What you said about losing a gf or job is also true, you might suffer mental health episodes over such things. The difference with someone with clinical depression, anxiety etc, is that it would be more prolonged or extreme potentially.

Eta: To empthasize the point, mental health issues are most definitely different than the normal sadness, grief and anger we feel from time to time as humans. Anyone that experiences those things and calls it mental illness don’t understand the illness is much more than just feeling sad etc.

 

[Kaz]

Who gives a shit, he was a bog average player who did nothing but slam bin lids after a victory once every 2 to 3 months.

Lucky it wasn't every week, or he would be suing for bursitis of the shoulders.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

It's from Weidler so we can safely assume it is near on officially representing the club's explanation for the timeline of events.

A comment from that Bulldogs socials site.....

"Sounds like he’s been coerced by his Father who probably had dollar signs in his eyes. He seemed prepared to get on with it, then suddenly stopped showing up. It reeks of family interference".

Don't really think it was the dollar signs but emotion overcame him and his Dad didn't think it thru enough and it's had a snowballing effect. The better option was to get his contract release and move on if the family thought he was getting a raw deal somehow.

I still think the family and Bulldogs representatives sitting around the kitchen table could resolve this so that the club can move on and Jackson can commence a career in UK to settle himself down and get back to playing again.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a lot of fatherly concern for his son being unfairly treated (in his eyes) and yeah, things snowballed from there. Could easily imagine that chain of events. Perhaps even the threat of biggest law case or whatever he said, made Jackson think he couldn’t face the club, Gus, Ciro etc.

What a cluster….

 

[InGusWeTrust]

Mate it doesn’t matter if he has experienced negative consequences from it in this instance. What matters is if those negative consequences were experienced as a result of something the club has done wrong.

It’s crystal clear that all NRL clubs train their players hard and heaps of other players have experienced similar punishments to Topine.

It would be different if he was subjected to something unique that had never been done before.

Also keep in mind he had never mentioned any mental health problems to the club previously.

I know. I was just explaining from my experience of how mental health issues may be involved and in what way.

I’ve said numerous times that a lot of what these guys have to deal with as professionals goes against what “normal” people would be used to. That’s why this is an intriguing case because it basically puts a lot of training techniques under the spotlight and questions whether they’re abusive. I would be very doubtful that the players would be capable of the toughness they play with, without many of these techniques, hence it’s interesting.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

Billy Slater, Brad Fittler have said the same. If you can't keep up on the training paddock, can't go that extra yard how are you going to accomplish it on the field of play against others who can. Some people are not suited to the professional game and unfortunately it seems this way for Jackson.

Yep, just to reinforce my previous post. For better or worse that’s where the sport is at currently. I don’t know about others but since the 2000s I have been amazed at how brutal and hardcore NRL has become. Year on year it gets tougher and faster.

The players of the 70s, 80s and even further back were no softies mind you, it’s just how ferocious the game is these days is crazy. I honestly can’t imagine humans being able to do what these guys do tbh. I’d be stuffed after one set!

 

[Lynchpin]

^^^^
Hopefully this article allowed in this thread. Please delete Mods if not allowable.

Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs News

Topine’s dad sent early legal threat to Bulldogs Article from SMH / Danny Weidler In the aftermath of the wrestling session that led to Jackson Topine eventually ending his time at the...

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I have always thought this had/has far more to do with being overlooked for selection at the expense of duds like Okunbor and others.
Despite the new fashionable view that Topine "is a dud", is "too small", couldn't cut it, or didn't train well - the opposite is true.

All of the people that "saw this", "knew this", "I told you so" Bull$#!t were ALWAYS going to "see this", "know this", no matter how he performed.
That's their narrative, it was always "locked in", and no amount of reality will or could ever change it.
Must have had a run in with them or one of their sisters or something unrelated to on field. Who knows? Hate and envy are mysterious emotions and tend to devour some people. Strange.

As that article admits: "In fairness to Topine, he was always seen as a good trainer; he did not shirk his responsibilities."
I had never heard even an inkling that he wasn't a dedicated trainer, until it suddenly became a convenient post hoc speculation from this "event".

And despite the "rush to judge" accusations of "weak", "not up to it", etc the article also claims:
"He did not complain about the wrestling, but he did question whether he was late for training. He did not understand the reason for the punishment, but did not complain about it."

I think the perceived "unfairness" of being overlooked for inferior performers built up over time and led into a "straw" (that broke the camel's back) with the addition of the perceived unfairness of "being late" when he wasn't (at least in his view).

I think that's where Ciraldo might look back in future years and think he could have handled (man managed) this much better. Maybe that future year is now; he's clearly a better coach than last year. So, hopefully it is the case.

That in no way endorses where Topine took this. But then, we do not know all of the facts, so who knows if any of it is justified.
If the Bulldogs seemed uninterested in picking him and developing him, then he might have been better advised to seek a release in pursuit of a new start (at another NRL club, or in the UK) to get some game time, some highlights and a shot at future contracts.

He is/was capable in my view (even though, again, it isn't fashionable to say so).

He'd been one of our best players in Reggies for some time. You only need to see what happened to their campaign once he stopped playing (did they win another game?)

He played (I think) his best NRL game for us in Round 19 last year, which showed he did have what it takes when the brains trust finally selected him in his natural position. He had a lesser game the following round (as you might expect from a 16 game rookie) and yet somehow shouldered the blame for that performance. That's right, it's all the rookie's fault.

Actually, if I recall correctly, that was the round against the Panthers where Ciraldo "lost his $#!t"; dropped Topine to 18th (all his fault apparently), gave his star Fullback (Perham) a late call up (FMD!), sent Averillo to half, played Flanagan at hooker, and promoted (again) the devastating Okunbor back into the backrow - all for a similar result.
He'd have been far better off sticking with trying to get his rookies more game time and experience, rather than selecting a raft of exiting plodders out of position.

Seems strange that there's a massive pile onto the errant decisions of a 22yo kid, and yet complete absolution of, possibly worse (at least more impactful), dud decisions of people nearly twice his age.

So, I simply do not buy the "he's a dud" perception. And I can see a scenario where the situation was mis-handled initially. But then (again only based on that article), it seems the club had reached out to try to salvage the developing issue, before it became an impasse.

I think it is unlikely the case will stick (but, stranger things). Let's hope cooler heads prevail and some kind of resolution can be worked out quickly. It will be best for all involved.

 

[wendog33]

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a lot of fatherly concern for his son being unfairly treated (in his eyes) and yeah, things snowballed from there. Could easily imagine that chain of events. Perhaps even the threat of biggest law case or whatever he said, made Jackson think he couldn’t face the club, Gus, Ciro etc.

What a cluster….

Yes most def fatherly concern if we can say that. But as we all learn in life, sometimes you have to offer sound, unemotional, measured advice as a parent and try and descale situations our children are caught up in.

I believe there was a relationshop breakdown also (only passing on goss from another site) and this may well have added to the distress Jackson was experiencing, as in the straw that broke the camels back and family would have been distraught for Jackson.

What we all do know is that the situation is tragic for all parties and we'd all be much better off it it had of been handled differently. Threatening to instigate legal action against the club does seem irrational, as there is no indication that any conciliatory meetings had taken place first?

Anyway all the best to all those caught up in this from all the Club employees and to the Topine family themselves. Everyone of them would be struggling in some form or another from this very public legal action against the Bulldogs.

 

[Menteek]

Also I have information that what he has claimed to what actually has happened is completely different.

Read between the lines about Braidon burns article saying he did the same thing.

I did get more information behind the scenes and it seems like the media has blown it up without actually knowing what happened to get to this stage it’s at today.

 

[wendog33]

I have always thought this had/has far more to do with being overlooked for selection at the expense of duds like Okunbor and others.
Despite the new fashionable view that Topine "is a dud", is "too small", couldn't cut it, or didn't train well - the opposite is true.

All of the people that "saw this", "knew this", "I told you so" Bull$#!t were ALWAYS going to "see this", "know this", no matter how he performed.
That's their narrative, it was always "locked in", and no amount of reality will or could ever change it.
Must have had a run in with them or one of their sisters or something unrelated to on field. Who knows? Hate and envy are mysterious emotions and tend to devour some people. Strange.

As that article admits: "In fairness to Topine, he was always seen as a good trainer; he did not shirk his responsibilities."
I had never heard even an inkling that he wasn't a dedicated trainer, until it suddenly became a convenient post hoc speculation from this "event".

And despite the "rush to judge" accusations of "weak", "not up to it", etc the article also claims:
"He did not complain about the wrestling, but he did question whether he was late for training. He did not understand the reason for the punishment, but did not complain about it."

I think the perceived "unfairness" of being overlooked for inferior performers built up over time and led into a "straw" (that broke the camel's back) with the addition of the perceived unfairness of "being late" when he wasn't (at least in his view).

I think that's where Ciraldo might look back in future years and think he could have handled (man managed) this much better. Maybe that future year is now; he's clearly a better coach than last year. So, hopefully it is the case.

That in no way endorses where Topine took this. But then, we do not know all of the facts, so who knows if any of it is justified.
If the Bulldogs seemed uninterested in picking him and developing him, then he might have been better advised to seek a release in pursuit of a new start (at another NRL club, or in the UK) to get some game time, some highlights and a shot at future contracts.

He is/was capable in my view (even though, again, it isn't fashionable to say so).

He'd been one of our best players in Reggies for some time. You only need to see what happened to their campaign once he stopped playing (did they win another game?)

He played (I think) his best NRL game for us in Round 19 last year, which showed he did have what it takes when the brains trust finally selected him in his natural position. He had a lesser game the following round (as you might expect from a 16 game rookie) and yet somehow shouldered the blame for that performance. That's right, it's all the rookie's fault.

Actually, if I recall correctly, that was the round against the Panthers where Ciraldo "lost his $#!t"; dropped Topine to 18th (all his fault apparently), gave his star Fullback (Perham) a late call up (FMD!), sent Averillo to half, played Flanagan at hooker, and promoted (again) the devastating Okunbor back into the backrow - all for a similar result.
He'd have been far better off sticking with trying to get his rookies more game time and experience, rather than selecting a raft of exiting plodders out of position.

Seems strange that there's a massive pile onto the errant decisions of a 22yo kid, and yet complete absolution of, possibly worse (at least more impactful), dud decisions of people nearly twice his age.

So, I simply do not buy the "he's a dud" perception. And I can see a scenario where the situation was mis-handled initially. But then (again only based on that article), it seems the club had reached out to try to salvage the developing issue, before it became an impasse.

I think it is unlikely the case will stick (but, stranger things). Let's hope cooler heads prevail and some kind of resolution can be worked out quickly. It will be best for all involved.

I agree mate. In a sense it has the same undertones of the situation of Rhyse Martin and Pay's coaching decisions with him.

I guess there are times where a player is out of the loop and not favoured by the coach for some reason not immediately obvious to fans.

Jackson was a proud representative of our junior systems. Fittler thought so highly of him as a natural leader that he made him capt of Junior SOO. He could have had a good career here and was certainly a better player than Oki.

Anyways hoping this can be mutually resolved and all parties can move on to greener pastures.

 

[Novdoggie]

This won't make it to court imo. It will be settled beforehand

 

[Nate DAWG]

This won't make it to court imo. It will be settled beforehand

100%. The winner of the media narrative will determine how much he gets

 

[Harry Oz]

Yep, just to reinforce my previous post. For better or worse that’s where the sport is at currently. I don’t know about others but since the 2000s I have been amazed at how brutal and hardcore NRL has become. Year on year it gets tougher and faster.

The players of the 70s, 80s and even further back were no softies mind you, it’s just how ferocious the game is these days is crazy. I honestly can’t imagine humans being able to do what these guys do tbh. I’d be stuffed after one set!

Plenty of players from previous suffered anxiety, depression, a range of psychological conditions that can be attributed to the pressure of their working environment.
Many chose self-medication, some decided to end their own lives.
If anything things were worse in the past with social pressure not to appear weak and seek help.
Comments like those from Fittler and Slater actually put pressure on any players worried about their mental well-being to keep it from themselves. I would expect Slater to say something like if you're not up to tough training how can you play? But a bit surprised that Fittler joined in.

There will be many NRL players who right now are struggling to cope and wondering if they should seek help.

Shaming people with mental health problems does not help.

Jackson Topine is more than entitled to make a claim against the club.

The court will decide the truth of the matter.

In the meantime I hope he makes a full recovery and reaches his potential as a human being.

 

[ChesoBulldog]

If I am reading between the lines correctly the bulldogs defence will be these claims were premeditated by his father and the mental health claims came after the threat of legal action so they will question their legitimacy.
This is just stupid from Jackson. His father has ruined his career

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

Mate it doesn’t matter if he has experienced negative consequences from it in this instance. What matters is if those negative consequences were experienced as a result of something the club has done wrong.

It’s crystal clear that all NRL clubs train their players hard and heaps of other players have experienced similar punishments to Topine.

It would be different if he was subjected to something unique that had never been done before.

Also keep in mind he had never mentioned any mental health problems to the club previously.

Yep, Andrew Johns said before that he once had to stand up in front of the whole playing naked and sing a song.
Now that would have more legs as that is way outside his job description and that would be humiliating.
Not doing something that is inheritent with your job.
That would be like a swimmer being late and he has to do another 20 laps or something.

 

[Hound Dog]

On another note, been on my mind a while, just like in the old days they used to train boxing as a part of footy, there's too much focus on wrestling in training for my liking. It's not like tackling techniques and rucks have improved much over the last decade and so.
Even when Storm gained notoriety there were ways to counter their plays. Just let footy play itself out no need to keep changing rules. Teams with innovative coaches will work around it while others try to adapt. The successful teams countering these plays will set the new benchmarks and the cycle begins again, what happens then change the rules to minimise that new style of play?
Keep some wrestling but don't focus on it so much, especially since the NRL has been trying to get it out of the game. We're not trying to tap players out on the field...

 

[diddly]

Rather than call it wrestling call it tackle control technique training

 

[Hound Dog]

Rather than call it wrestling call it tackle control technique training

Then do that.

 

[steeliz]

Plenty of players from previous suffered anxiety, depression, a range of psychological conditions that can be attributed to the pressure of their working environment.
Many chose self-medication, some decided to end their own lives.
If anything things were worse in the past with social pressure not to appear weak and seek help.
Comments like those from Fittler and Slater actually put pressure on any players worried about their mental well-being to keep it from themselves. I would expect Slater to say something like if you're not up to tough training how can you play? But a bit surprised that Fittler joined in.

There will be many NRL players who right now are struggling to cope and wondering if they should seek help.

Shaming people with mental health problems does not help.

Jackson Topine is more than entitled to make a claim against the club.

The court will decide the truth of the matter.

In the meantime I hope he makes a full recovery and reaches his potential as a human being.

I do not want to denigrate what Topine is going through.

I have no doubt he is struggling with his mental health.

But an important question that has not been addressed is did the wrestling create the mental health issue or was it the straw that broke the camels back?

If he had issues from before, from previous relationships or family incidents or school or wherever, just how liable should we be if found guilty?